Arsenal praise for ‘doing OK’ is ‘massively disingenuous to Liverpool’
Arsenal fans hit back against criticism of conspiracy theories but other fans want to point out that the Gunners just ain’t that good.
Send your views on all subjects to theeditor@football365.com
Take five!
Five words on each team thus far, just because.
Liverpool – Their controlled competence feels odd.
Man City – Winning despite themselves. Selfish pricks.
Arsenal – Load of bull. Seeing red.
Aston Villa – Stop it. Just stop it.
Brighton – Looking lovely. Plus ca change.
Chelsea – All things considered, annoyingly decent.
Tottenham – Really difficult to say, mate.
Nottingham Forest – The Tricky Trees need Wood.
Newcastle – A strangely dull season awaiting?
Fulham – Incredibly happy for Raul Jimenez.
Bournemouth – Nowt to say. Bodes well.
Man Utd – Unfathomable. In so many ways.
Brentford – Living the life of Bryan.
Leicester – Somehow have 9 actual points.
West Ham – Careful what you wish for?
Everton – Find it hard to care.*
Ipswich – Might need a win soon.
Crystal Palace – 40 points looks tough work.
Southampton – Sometimes, being shit’s on you.
Wolves – Sometimes, being unlucky’s on you.
Gary AVFC, Oxford (*A Dyche thing more than Everton).
Klopp’s Liverpool > Arteta’s Arsenal
Over the last few months there has been a narrative that suggests what Arsenal have achieved over the last couple of years is similar to that which Liverpool did a few years earlier.
I’ve been thinking of writing about this for some time, but was today prompted by Dave Tickner’s article, in which he stated. ‘The very best side Jurgen Klopp built at Liverpool couldn’t do it. Sure, they managed to get a title along the way, but they could never challenge City three times in a row.’
That throw-away, ‘managed to get a title’ is doing a lot of heavy lifting.
Not only did Liverpool manage to get a title, but they accumulated 196 points, and would arguably have had more but for COVID. Arsenal have done ok, but accumulated 173 points when challenging City.
Suggesting the two title challenges are similar is massively disingenuous to Liverpool.
It’s also worth pointing out that Liverpool were favourites in the following season until Christmas, when they lost VVD and three other centre backs.
Rob
Don’t pander to the Arsenal noise
Elements of Dave Tickner’s piece are absolutely spot on. It is excessively exhausting physically and mentally to challenge City year-on-year and aim for the 90-point barrier praying it’ll be enough. No doubt about it. I had doubts we could go again a third time and based on everything I’ve seen so far, those doubts remain. Sunday already bordering on ‘must win’ and we’re not yet in November.
But if you’re using verified accounts/engagement farmers on Twitter as the ones labelling Gary O’Neil as ‘our new hero’ then you’ve gone to pot as a website. There was no issue with the City goal – it was clever in much the same way we’ve all defended Ben White in the past for his ‘antics’. Goalkeepers get too much protection and should be stronger; it’s an advantage we have spotted and benefitted from, so there should be no complaints from any sane fans on that.
“Any defeat for Arsenal is now catastrophe” is a hugely sweeping generalisation too. Not sure I’ve seen any Arsenal fan with a podcast or column inch worth listening to simply chalk this one up as anything more than a bad day at the office and one we need to move on from quickly. The red card is obviously ‘the big moment’ but it’s also just our second league defeat of 2024.
Spurs fan Tickner is unlikely to have fired up the Arsecast Extra this morning, but to paraphrase The Athletic’s James McNicholas (aka Gunnerblog): “Defeats hurt more these days because there’s a big difference between first and second. Nobody cares as much when losing is the difference between sixth or seventh.” It’s only a catastrophe if you follow coverage which says as such.
And finally, on the Saliba/Tosin incidents. What’s been missed by Tickner here is the consistency (sorry – that word again) on how such incidents are handled. Both booked in real time remember, but only one of them going to VAR. Why? That’s my biggest issue with it. Saliba’s was deemed a clear and obvious error by the ref, but Tosin’s wasn’t worth a second look.
Actually no, my biggest issue with it is the re-reffing of a piece of play which has ultimately been deemed worse than genuine violent conduct incidents (Martinez, Joelinton) we’ve seen escape further punishment, but that might be a whole other email.
So anyway please, while you beg us to resist the conspiracy theory kool-aid, perhaps you could stop writing articles based off some verified account Twitter replies and revert to being one of the only websites which cover this sport without pandering to crap, Muskly-algorithmed narratives.
Joe, AFC, East Sussex
…Two articles by F365 on Arsenal fans losing their minds pre-Monday mailbox, then full of people saying they’re gearing up for it, before we’ve even said anything? Think you’re all a bit too into the Arsenal conspiracy fever from the other side too folks.
There might be some real headbangers on the socials but guarantee you 90% of Arsenal fans saw the Saliba thing and went ‘yeh, pretty daft thing to do, understand the red card’.
Kind of annoying that it happened via a VAR overriding ref’s original decision- is there really enough to claim he made an obvious error with yellow? Clearly the line is somewhere between that and whatever happened in the Chelsea game but bugger knows where exactly that is. C’est la vie.
But there does seem to be a bit too much glee to paint us all as out of our tree and it’s a bit tiring. Much easier to assume we’ll chuck this one on the ‘system is against us’ pile and rage than give benefit of doubt that we know general or 50/50 red cards happen to every team.
Never mind people wanting to ask nuanced questions of a deeply murky, inconsistent and seemingly deteriorating officiating body (we’re hardly the only fan base thinking refereeing and VAR has been delivered as messily and incompetantly as it could have been). Much easier to stoke the ragebait machine.
Tom, Leyton
This is what Liverpool fans went through
Can I just say that I am loving all the people rushing to give out to Arsenal fans for their conspiracy theories and complaints about every decision that doesn’t go their way.
Apparently Arsenal fans are the worst ever… now!!
For years the same complaints were levelled at Liverpool fans. I always thought it was bull/trolling. Seeing how quickly people are turning on the Arsenal fans confirms that to me.
Not because I think the Arsenal fans are definitely right/wrong. But they are not so wildly wrong that they deserve this level of pile on… unless it’s just trolling and always was!!
Keep up the good fight Gooners… it won’t get you anywhere though… I’ve learnt that lesson!!
Joe LFC (just realised I might have damned your arguments forever by aligning you alongside LFC fans!!)
VAR from enjoyable these days
Hello, thanks to Phil for responding to my email. Since I sent that we have had a mirror image incident at Liverpool go the other way which presumably escaped his viewing as per his caveat. I would be curious to know if Phil thinks that one should have been a red too. Personally I think with the whole half to run and the attacker not having made a first touch it’s hard to justify upgrading a yellow.
Thinking more broadly, am I alone in finding myself enjoying football a lot less since VAR came along?T his could not be VAR it could just be Man City winning everything, or it could be the constant internet discourse (of which this email contributes), or it could be just me being older. But it feels like it all started around when VAR came in.
I felt like I could always handle a ref making a mistake but now there are a team of refs contriving to fuck it up every game it feels harder to enjoy. And then after years of the broadcaster hanging the lone ref out to dry for any error they have suddenly switched to having a further PR team of refs defending the hapless team of refs. I just wish we were talking about the football.
James
Do we need foreign refs?
In the PL we have had foreign players replacing English players, foreign owners replacing English owners and foreign coaches replacing English coaches. The question is when are we going to get foreign referees to replace English referees. The standard is awful.
Some decisions are baffling. Southampton v Leicester on Saturday. Ayew blatantly pulls back Southampton player by jersey during a corner. Decision, no penalty as it did not interfere with the outcome of the play, that was the explanation. WTF did that become a thing. Pulling a jersey as a guy is running for a ball is a foul regardless. These refs make it up as they go along. Another Anthony Taylor classic.
During the Euros the worse referees were the English, the longest VAR decisions were the English VAR team. Time to get some foreign refs in.
Ken, Cork, Ireland
Explanation for a five-year-old
Monday morning in the mailbox, Eoin asked why Tosin got a yellow card for essentially the same foul Saliba got a red for.
The fundamental difference Eion, was the direction the ball was travelling in. This is one of the four criteria used to establish denial of a clear goalscoring opportunity. All four must be present for a red card to be shown.
For Saliba, the ball was coming from the wing, into the middle of the pitch. For Tosin, it was heading down the line towards the corner of the penalty box. That means once Jota collects the ball, he has to bring it inside from an angle to get a shooting opportunity; increasing the time taken and providing more chance for Chelsea defenders to get back to cover.
Hope that helps!
Paul (Spurs, T.Wells)
Help with the rules please…
Not a word I use often, but I hate the Pompous Group Made up Of Losers (PGMOL). Don’t want to go into specifics but they strike me as very much of in the previous Government’s attitude, We’ll bang on about “great use of VAR, great decisions, the Ref taking up a brilliant position” etc etc etc, but if they get one wrong it’s “Sorry, let’s move on”, the repercussions of their errors totally ignored.
However, that’s not the main point of my e-mail (just venting), I wondered if anyone in the F365 community can explain the use of the following. David Raya brings down the Bournemouth player and a penalty is warded, Raya receives a yellow card on the “double jeopardy” criteria, a commonly accepted and understood process.
Ryan Fraser pulls Jamie Vardy’s shirt and a penalty is awarded yet Fraser gets a red card! Why is the same criteria not applied? The clown on Refwatch describes it as “correct, he’s denied a clear goalscoring opportunity therefore a red card”, what on earth is Raya doing if not the same.
Help please.
Howard (John Brooks is a joke) Jones
Arteta is doing just fine
No of first teamers Arsenal were missing BEFORE Saliba’s sending off – 3
No of away matches Arsenal have lost in 2024 – 1
No of times Stewie has written into the mailbox this season – 1.
Arteta’s doing fine.
Graham Simons, Gooner, Norf London
Is Stewie actually right?
Bloody hell Stewie, I agree with you! Might have blamed Trossard for that back pass.
Arsenal haven’t played at all well this season and have been shooting ourselves in the foot. I would have played the much hated technical Zinchenko in midfield or Jorginho.
Having said that, neither have Citeh played well scraping past our 10 men in the 98th minute and Wolves in the 95th minute.
Liverpool are looking good as are others..
It’s not Citeh’s yet.
Chris, Croydon
Still optimistic about Spurs
It did amuse me that the day after my letter to the mailbox about coverage of Spurs being narrative driven there were two perfectly examples waiting for me in the f365 coverage.
(It’s actually three! – Ed)
Spurs have scored the second most goals (one behind City), conceded the 5th least and have the 3rd best goal difference. Is is really that shocking that a team in 7th with those stats has two players in a team that is very much driven by goals scored and conceded, or is it just that those statistics don’t fit the narrative of where Spurs are as a team? I’m leaning towards the latter.
Then Andrew in the mailbox asked what I meant by narrative and then said our away performances ex United are all the same and Brighton wasn’t an outlier. To clarify, my point is that what people say about spurs doesn’t change whether we win or lose. If we lose, we are terrible and our defence is a shambles. If we win, we are terrible but not quite as terrible as the team we just thrashed and our defence is a shambles. And no, the capitulation against Brighton was not exactly the same as Newcastle scoring with their first chance of a half we had absolutely dominated.
As I said, Spurs are a work in progress. A better team would have beaten Newcastle and Leicester given the performances. But our attack and defence are both much better than they were after the early honeymoon last season, and that is backed up both by our record but also the underlying numbers – our xG is pretty much identical to our actuals for instance.
So as a Spurs fan you have a choice. You can either believe the lazy narrative and/or base your opinion of the team purely on the back of the Brighton shambles, or you can see the improvements being made and the tactical tweaks (Kulu being moved inside, the Sarr change this week) that are driving those improvements and be optimistic. Again, I’m leaning towards the latter.
Phil, London